The Mystery of the Secret Tank Job

Tyrone Corbin singled out Al Jefferson as a main reason behind Utah's recent success.
"He’s a huge part of the success that we’ve been having here of late," Corbin said. Jefferson just won Western Conference Player of the Week by averaging 19.8 points, 8.3 rebounds and 2.2 steals while the Jazz went 4-0, and Jefferson's team has now won five straight in large part due to his performance. Corbin also pointed to Jefferson's defense when praising the big man.

So who does this say more about right now, Ty Corbin or Al?

Mutangclan wrote:

Tyrone Corbin singled out Al Jefferson as a main reason behind Utah's recent success.
"He’s a huge part of the success that we’ve been having here of late," Corbin said. Jefferson just won Western Conference Player of the Week by averaging 19.8 points, 8.3 rebounds and 2.2 steals while the Jazz went 4-0, and Jefferson's team has now won five straight in large part due to his performance. Corbin also pointed to Jefferson's defense when praising the big man.

So who does this say more about right now, Ty Corbin or Al?

Good question.

It was pretty clear that when the Jazz were in full on Secret Tank Mode that one of the biggest problems was Al Jefferson, so it seems to make perfect sense that him playing better would have a positive impact on the Jazz. No doubt he has been playing much much better offensively, he has been attacking the basket, moving the ball, and running the court more than I have ever seen him do, ever. It's really remarkable to watch the difference in the Jazz offense when he's playing like this, this team is actually fun to watch now, and credit for that has to go to Jefferson and Corbin for changing their game plans.

What I'm not really impressed with is the D. I hear Harpring and Bolerjack and Corbin and others praising the Jazz for their defensive effort but I'm not seeing it. I see a Jazz team that is just outscoring it's opponents, not stopping them in any way.

Over the last 6 games the Jazz have let their opponents shoot 49% from the field, 43% from the 3pt line, and given up 107.6 points per 100 possessions, these are the numbers of an ELITE NBA offense. Giving up those kinds of numbers make you the worst defensive team in the NBA if they were maintained for an entire season, and they are all well below the Jazz season averages.

It is a teastament to the incredible efficiency of the Jazz offense that they have been able to go 5-1 in those 6 games, but that record has nothing to do with improved D.

Mutangclan wrote:

Tyrone Corbin singled out Al Jefferson as a main reason behind Utah's recent success.
"He’s a huge part of the success that we’ve been having here of late," Corbin said. Jefferson just won Western Conference Player of the Week by averaging 19.8 points, 8.3 rebounds and 2.2 steals while the Jazz went 4-0, and Jefferson's team has now won five straight in large part due to his performance. Corbin also pointed to Jefferson's defense when praising the big man.

So who does this say more about right now, Ty Corbin or Al?

If you ask me, it says a lot about Jefferson. I think dude has never been really coached until he put his feet in SLC. He's been coached now and it shows. If he gains consistency stopping ballhandlers out of the P&R and continue his trend of quick hands on D, and continue to quick pass inside out and to accelerate his moves and decision on O... he can be something special for the Jazz going into the future.

Yes, i know I've called him out along Millsap... but hey.. I'm just a casual fan

I know Mag will attempt murder on me now

outerspacefan wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Tyrone Corbin singled out Al Jefferson as a main reason behind Utah's recent success.
"He’s a huge part of the success that we’ve been having here of late," Corbin said. Jefferson just won Western Conference Player of the Week by averaging 19.8 points, 8.3 rebounds and 2.2 steals while the Jazz went 4-0, and Jefferson's team has now won five straight in large part due to his performance. Corbin also pointed to Jefferson's defense when praising the big man.

So who does this say more about right now, Ty Corbin or Al?

If you ask me, it says a lot about Jefferson. I think dude has never been really coached until he put his feet in SLC. He's been coached now and it shows. If he gains consistency stopping ballhandlers out of the P&R and continue his trend of quick hands on D, and continue to quick pass inside out and to accelerate his moves and decision on O... he can be something special for the Jazz going into the future.

Yes, i know I've called him out along Millsap... but hey.. I'm just a casual fan

I know Mag will attempt murder on me now

Na, I agree, it does say a lot about Jefferson, for better and worse.

I do think it is a mistake to say he's never been coached though. Doc Rivers and Kevin McHale aren't exactly bums, and he's been with the Jazz 3 years now. At 29 years old and 10 years in the league this tiger aint changing his stripes. He may be able to better integrate into a team oriented offense, and by doing so lead an elite NBA offense, but he'll always be a liability on D, and no team with him playing significant minutes will ever be above average defensively.

TheMagnus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Tyrone Corbin singled out Al Jefferson as a main reason behind Utah's recent success.
"He’s a huge part of the success that we’ve been having here of late," Corbin said. Jefferson just won Western Conference Player of the Week by averaging 19.8 points, 8.3 rebounds and 2.2 steals while the Jazz went 4-0, and Jefferson's team has now won five straight in large part due to his performance. Corbin also pointed to Jefferson's defense when praising the big man.

So who does this say more about right now, Ty Corbin or Al?

Good question.

It was pretty clear that when the Jazz were in full on Secret Tank Mode that one of the biggest problems was Al Jefferson, so it seems to make perfect sense that him playing better would have a positive impact on the Jazz. No doubt he has been playing much much better offensively, he has been attacking the basket, moving the ball, and running the court more than I have ever seen him do, ever. It's really remarkable to watch the difference in the Jazz offense when he's playing like this, this team is actually fun to watch now, and credit for that has to go to Jefferson and Corbin for changing their game plans.

What I'm not really impressed with is the D. I hear Harpring and Bolerjack and Corbin and others praising the Jazz for their defensive effort but I'm not seeing it. I see a Jazz team that is just outscoring it's opponents, not stopping them in any way.

Over the last 6 games the Jazz have let their opponents shoot 49% from the field, 43% from the 3pt line, and given up 107.6 points per 100 possessions, these are the numbers of an ELITE NBA offense. Giving up those kinds of numbers make you the worst defensive team in the NBA if they were maintained for an entire season, and they are all well below the Jazz season averages.

It is a teastament to the incredible efficiency of the Jazz offense that they have been able to go 5-1 in those 6 games, but that record has nothing to do with improved D.

Yea interesting isn't it. I mean, last night the Jazz were out-shot like 48% to 45% or something. I mean, that does not scream better defense. And when was the last time this team was referred to as Swat Lake City even?

But Al has seem to of found someone else's motor all of a sudden. It doens't change the fact that if the opposing team's coach is smart enough to run pick and rolls at him, those guards are non-stop running right past him. Pretty sad still.

So the Jazz now are catching fire behind the arc, Jefferson is attacking more, as are other guys. Less settling for jumpers. Offense is clicking for sure........and defense is terrible. You know what a big part of it is IMO??? No Kanter, no DC and more Tinsley instead of Burks. Too bad Corbin continues this. When the offense cools, we'll be in trouble. Again.

Mutangclan wrote:

Too bad Corbin continues this. When the offense cools, we'll be in trouble. Again.

True words. Jazz are NOT playing good D at all. Who here expects Foye to stay out of his slump? Looking for hands...looking....

It could get ugly any minute and don't even get me pondering the playoff "experience" the Jazz are maybe about to get. We've seen all season that the D is killing the Jazz and the only reason they are in the hunt is some nights they decide during shoot around that they are all gonna hit more than 42% of their shots and the other nights they forget to agree on that. O-For-Foye, Where Is the Basket Marvin, etc.

Mutangclan wrote:

Yea interesting isn't it. I mean, last night the Jazz were out-shot like 48% to 45% or something. I mean, that does not scream better defense. And when was the last time this team was referred to as Swat Lake City even?

But Al has seem to of found someone else's motor all of a sudden. It doens't change the fact that if the opposing team's coach is smart enough to run pick and rolls at him, those guards are non-stop running right past him. Pretty sad still.

So the Jazz now are catching fire behind the arc, Jefferson is attacking more, as are other guys. Less settling for jumpers. Offense is clicking for sure........and defense is terrible. You know what a big part of it is IMO??? No Kanter, no DC and more Tinsley instead of Burks. Too bad Corbin continues this. When the offense cools, we'll be in trouble. Again.

Oh man. It was actually 58% to 54!!! FIFTY-frickin-EIGHT PERCENT FOR THE ENTIRE GAME!! AND WE STILL WON??? That does speak to a truly awesome offensive effort (and only 6 turnovers to 17).

I'm almost afraid of the bad, bad lessons the Jazz are learning from this little run:

a) We have an elite offense. Well, maybe we do. We sure as hell have some fine offensive ballplayers. But I watch these guys standing around on offense and I see a team succeeding in spite of itself. It isn't "elite" in the sense that you can plug in interchangeable parts and stay elite. It isn't "elite" in the sense that the success will survive sub-par shooting from the perimeter (the standing around leads to very sub-par offensive rebouinding, or am I the only one noticing that? See below)

b) The recent success on offense has, as pointed out already, obscured some pretty poor defense. And at times this year, the Jazz have demonstrated "elite" suffocatinbg defense. What happened?? (see below)

c) The recent scoring has come despite, not because of, a slow, walk-it-up, Derronesque pace. What happened to the great blazing running the Jazz were doing so successfully earlier in the season (see below)?

d) The Jazz, if this little run leads to the playoffs, may feel they have found their "coach of the future" despite SEE BELOW:


BELOW!!!!

The Jazz are running a standaround heroball offense without heroball players. They very seldom compete for offensive boards, except for the occasional individual effort. They don't run, because of their only running players, Gordo, Burks, DC, Evans (Kanter and Fave will run sometimes, too), only Hayward gets much "run". By a total non-coincidence, these are also the suffocating defenders who are noticeably not on the floor while we are giving up 107 ppg (but still winning).

And the offense, the pace of the offense, the defense and the personnel decisions are all dictated by a coach who is, arguably, NOT the Jazz' "coach of the future". He is running the vets out there because it's "safe". He's having the PGs walk the ball up into that standaround offense because it's safer and he's having guys run back on missed shots because...it's safer. And when they get back there, they carefully, even SAFELY, don't miss assignments, don't screw up rotations, don't spontaneously double that rookie PG who looks like a deer in the headlights...even when the careful avoidance of mistakes leads to teams shooting 58% against you.

My point* is that even though the Jazz have been winning, and scoring well, I don't think it's our best style of basketball, and it's not something that will lead to success in the future. It's the kind of risk-averse game plan football coaches resort to when they want to make sure everyone knows that failure is the fault of the players, not his flawless coaching.

But do we fans, and the front office, and the players all share, as an ultimate goal, the preservation of TyCo's job? This is a wagon onto which I have no desire to jump, nor do I wish to be a part of the band thereupon.

*-a necessary expansion to explain the complete absence of any predictive power of the STJ Theory.

Trollificus wrote:

Mutangclan wrote:

Yea interesting isn't it. I mean, last night the Jazz were out-shot like 48% to 45% or something. I mean, that does not scream better defense. And when was the last time this team was referred to as Swat Lake City even?

But Al has seem to of found someone else's motor all of a sudden. It doens't change the fact that if the opposing team's coach is smart enough to run pick and rolls at him, those guards are non-stop running right past him. Pretty sad still.

So the Jazz now are catching fire behind the arc, Jefferson is attacking more, as are other guys. Less settling for jumpers. Offense is clicking for sure........and defense is terrible. You know what a big part of it is IMO??? No Kanter, no DC and more Tinsley instead of Burks. Too bad Corbin continues this. When the offense cools, we'll be in trouble. Again.

Oh man. It was actually 58% to 54!!! FIFTY-frickin-EIGHT PERCENT FOR THE ENTIRE GAME!! AND WE STILL WON??? That does speak to a truly awesome offensive effort (and only 6 turnovers to 17).

I'm almost afraid of the bad, bad lessons the Jazz are learning from this little run:

a) We have an elite offense. Well, maybe we do. We sure as hell have some fine offensive ballplayers. But I watch these guys standing around on offense and I see a team succeeding in spite of itself. It isn't "elite" in the sense that you can plug in interchangeable parts and stay elite. It isn't "elite" in the sense that the success will survive sub-par shooting from the perimeter (the standing around leads to very sub-par offensive rebouinding, or am I the only one noticing that? See below)

b) The recent success on offense has, as pointed out already, obscured some pretty poor defense. And at times this year, the Jazz have demonstrated "elite" suffocatinbg defense. What happened?? (see below)

c) The recent scoring has come despite, not because of, a slow, walk-it-up, Derronesque pace. What happened to the great blazing running the Jazz were doing so successfully earlier in the season (see below)?

d) The Jazz, if this little run leads to the playoffs, may feel they have found their "coach of the future" despite SEE BELOW:


BELOW!!!!

The Jazz are running a standaround heroball offense without heroball players. They very seldom compete for offensive boards, except for the occasional individual effort. They don't run, because of their only running players, Gordo, Burks, DC, Evans (Kanter and Fave will run sometimes, too), only Hayward gets much "run". By a total non-coincidence, these are also the suffocating defenders who are noticeably not on the floor while we are giving up 107 ppg (but still winning).

And the offense, the pace of the offense, the defense and the personnel decisions are all dictated by a coach who is, arguably, NOT the Jazz' "coach of the future". He is running the vets out there because it's "safe". He's having the PGs walk the ball up into that standaround offense because it's safer and he's having guys run back on missed shots because...it's safer. And when they get back there, they carefully, even SAFELY, don't miss assignments, don't screw up rotations, don't spontaneously double that rookie PG who looks like a deer in the headlights...even when the careful avoidance of mistakes leads to teams shooting 58% against you.

My point* is that even though the Jazz have been winning, and scoring well, I don't think it's our best style of basketball, and it's not something that will lead to success in the future. It's the kind of risk-averse game plan football coaches resort to when they want to make sure everyone knows that failure is the fault of the players, not his flawless coaching.

But do we fans, and the front office, and the players all share, as an ultimate goal, the preservation of TyCo's job? This is a wagon onto which I have no desire to jump, nor do I wish to be a part of the band thereupon.

*-a necessary expansion to explain the complete absence of any predictive power of the STJ Theory.

I actually disagree here that this isn't the Jazz best style of basketball.

Offensively, I think this is and always will be the Jazz best style of ball, the movement of both the players and the ball has been the best I have seen from them all season (except for the few games when Jefferson was out), this is evidenced by the fact that they are averaging over 25 assists a game, well above their season average. The pace is slower but I think that is because the team is working for better shots, not because they aren't running, as they are still getting the same number of fast break points they have all season. The Jazz are also getting the same number of offensive rebounds that they have all season, but an area where they have REALLY improved is turnovers, they are just killing teams in the turnover battle, averaging less than 13 turnovers a game and having an ast/TO ratio of 2:1 as a team, which is unheard of.

The Defense is crap, but that is because our vets are crappy defenders. Which is why I would argue that for this team, featuring these players, this style of basketball is absolutely our best style of basketball. This team is built to be an offensive powerhouse. It's got all the ingredients, shooters, slashers, post scorers, opportunistic scrappers, every member of the starting 5 and most of the guys off the bench could get hot and go for 25+ on any given night. So why not play to that strength?

That is why I think what we are seeing now is working, it's like a fun-n-gun philosophy in slow motion, high efficiency offense that shares the ball and rarely turns it over and defense that focuses on getting the ball back quickly, whether by forcing turnovers or letting the other team shoot. It's not something that I want to see long term, next season I want to see the powerhouse offense AND better D, but for now I'm just enjoying the ride and grateful for the fact that Jazz basketball is actually watchable, which is more than I could say a few games ago.

Mutangclan wrote:

Yea interesting isn't it. I mean, last night the Jazz were out-shot like 48% to 45% or something. I mean, that does not scream better defense. And when was the last time this team was referred to as Swat Lake City even?

But Al has seem to of found someone else's motor all of a sudden. It doens't change the fact that if the opposing team's coach is smart enough to run pick and rolls at him, those guards are non-stop running right past him. Pretty sad still.

So the Jazz now are catching fire behind the arc, Jefferson is attacking more, as are other guys. Less settling for jumpers. Offense is clicking for sure........and defense is terrible. You know what a big part of it is IMO??? No Kanter, no DC and more Tinsley instead of Burks. Too bad Corbin continues this. When the offense cools, we'll be in trouble. Again.

Yay. I called it. I'm so excited. Whoo.
Nice rotations tonight Tyrone, good game plan.

Yup. Ditto. Said that in the other thread but didn't bother to go into rotation failures.

Can we fire TyCo yet?

Because for some reason DC and JE doesn't play during these horrible losses when shit counts? I am sooooo over safe coaching at this point. I think some peeps got pysched because we beat up on a few non-playoff teams and the Nets at home and all the sudden there was a lot of questioning love in the room. Maybe Ty ain't suck bad. Maybe Ty won't ride Foye when he sucks. Maybe Ty gives Burkes minutes when Mo blows. Same drill, different game.

Jazz haven't done squat for months now despite a deep roster.
And. Doh! The ten deep Nuggies just showed how to do it in a smaller market without an All-star.

MTJazz wrote:

Yup. Ditto. Said that in the other thread but didn't bother to go into rotation failures.

Can we fire TyCo yet?

Because for some reason DC and JE doesn't play during these horrible losses when shit counts? I am sooooo over safe coaching at this point. I think some peeps got pysched because we beat up on a few non-playoff teams and the Nets at home and all the sudden there was a lot of questioning love in the room. Maybe Ty ain't suck bad. Maybe Ty won't ride Foye when he sucks. Maybe Ty gives Burkes minutes when Mo blows. Same drill, different game.

Jazz haven't done squat for months now despite a deep roster.
And. Doh! The ten deep Nuggies just showed how to do it in a smaller market without an All-star.

I was thinking about this during the game. Why are the Nuggets, who aren't any better on paper, having so much more success this year? The Nuggets are 10 deep, so are the Jazz (probably even 11). I think it boils down to the Jazz' rotations. (Yup, another blame the coach response.) I can't claim to have seen more than a handful of Nuggets games, but what I have seen is that they play the hot hand, don't force feed guys that aren't on their game, play as a team, and aren't afraid to bench players that aren't getting it done (i.e. McGee). All those things are things that the Jazz DON'T do very often. They ride the veteran hand, instead of the hot hand. They force feed Al no matter what else is working. They don't seem to understand that you don't just let 2 or 3 guys shoot their way out of a bad performance... you sit them down & give someone else a try. It's not like Foye is Kevin Durant. If KD has a bad stretch of games, you still give him the rock. If Foye, Mo, etc have a bad stretch, you limit their minutes & try someone else.

It doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but I guess NBA coaching is more complicated than that.

zero24gravity wrote:

It doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but I guess NBA coaching is more complicated than that.

I don't think it is, at all, and has been the center of our gripes with Ty all damn season long. I know Mags ain't a Karl fan but he has been tuning that team for several seasons now as a 10-deep roster and I'm tipping my hat because they are arguably the hottest team in the league since the All-star break and flat out roaring into the playoffs. Talk about a team no body wants to see in the first round! And as you noted, Karl is really smart about keeping a dynamic assemblage, often unorthodox, out on the floor no matter who starts. He looks at all 10 guys as mix and match tools. Have read several commentators and blogs this morning that did not miss the irony that the Nuggs on paper are no better than the Jazz yet Ty simply cannot break out of his "traditional" thinking when it comes to the Jazz lineup. He had a window mid-season when the Jazz started on that terrible run that happened to coincide with Burks, Kanter, and DC's exclamation point performances that they deserved more run. Right then and there was the time to adapt on the fly a develop a solid 10-11 man rotation. Tell me DC and JE would be getting DNP's on the Nuggies! No way, they would be strategically used juice guys, valuable contributors, and nights they were hot would log more minutes than the starters.

MTJazz wrote:

Yup. Ditto. Said that in the other thread but didn't bother to go into rotation failures.

Can we fire TyCo yet?

Because for some reason DC and JE doesn't play during these horrible losses when shit counts? I am sooooo over safe coaching at this point. I think some peeps got pysched because we beat up on a few non-playoff teams and the Nets at home and all the sudden there was a lot of questioning love in the room. Maybe Ty ain't suck bad. Maybe Ty won't ride Foye when he sucks. Maybe Ty gives Burkes minutes when Mo blows. Same drill, different game.

Jazz haven't done squat for months now despite a deep roster.
And. Doh! The ten deep Nuggies just showed how to do it in a smaller market without an All-star.

The Nuggets are a great comp, and I actaully think this Jazz team is one year behind the Nuggets, only with worse coaching.

If you recall last year the Nuggets had a heck of a time finding an identitiy, struggled all season, and faced a full scale revolt from fans demanding that George Karl be fired. Why were fans so upset? Because guys like Nene (injured), Al Harrington, Chris Anderson, and Timofey Mozgov were getting minutes in front of productive young players like Kosta Koufos, Javale McGee, and Kenneth Faried. Because the team couldn't play a lick of D, and they seemed to lack an identity. Any of that sound familiar?

The front office fixed their problems with a heady mix of boldness, intelligence, and luck, dumping most of the vets and bringing in Andre Igoudala. And what do you know... miracle of miracles, George Karl is suddenly one of the best coaches in the NBA again.

I'm just glad this season is almost over. Sometimes I think we all forget that this was pretty much the plan from the Jazz front office. They have been bandaiding together a roster with flawed veterans for two years as they nurse along a promising young group of players. They have purposely avoided any long term commitements, even when there were moves that would improve the team, in order to play the long game with these young players.

This summer is supposed to be the time we've all been waiting for, the time when the team gets turned over to the next generation, the time when the Jazz begin to use all of the flexibility they have worked so hard to preserve to build a real team, a team that can contend. It likely won't all happen this summer, but at the very least we should see a changing of the guard, and for me that couldn't come a minute too soon.

For me a worst case scenario at this point is that the Jazz front office continues to do what it has been doing for another year. Signing (or re-signing) vets, bringing in washed up rentals, making short term deals, all in an effort to be competitive without really being competitive. I don't think I can take it. I'd rather see them fill the roster with draft picks and D-Leaguers than see another season of this.

MTJazz wrote:

zero24gravity wrote:

It doesn't seem like rocket science to me, but I guess NBA coaching is more complicated than that.

I don't think it is, at all, and has been the center of our gripes with Ty all damn season long. I know Mags ain't a Karl fan but he has been tuning that team for several seasons now as a 10-deep roster and I'm tipping my hat because they are arguably the hottest team in the league since the All-star break and flat out roaring into the playoffs. Talk about a team no body wants to see in the first round! And as you noted, Karl is really smart about keeping a dynamic assemblage, often unorthodox, out on the floor no matter who starts. He looks at all 10 guys as mix and match tools. Have read several commentators and blogs this morning that did not miss the irony that the Nuggs on paper are no better than the Jazz yet Ty simply cannot break out of his "traditional" thinking when it comes to the Jazz lineup. He had a window mid-season when the Jazz started on that terrible run that happened to coincide with Burks, Kanter, and DC's exclamation point performances that they deserved more run. Right then and there was the time to adapt on the fly a develop a solid 10-11 man rotation. Tell me DC and JE would be getting DNP's on the Nuggies! No way, they would be strategically used juice guys, valuable contributors, and nights they were hot would log more minutes than the starters.

"on paper"....Isn't that the story of this team this season?

Mo Williams and Al Jefferson have to be two of the seminal "on paper" performers in the NBA.

Yeah, with you on that Mags. The parallels are interesting between Nuggies this year and Jazz except Karl has had Denver winning for quite a nice run:

09-10 season: 53-29, win NW Division
10-11 season: 50-32; injuries to key players, rip off 18 wins out of last 25
11-12 season: 38-28, almost upset No. 3 Lakers in 7 games
12-13 season: no all-stars, 2nd hottest team in league heading to playoffs

Sadly, I think we are all pretty convinced Ty will around next year and I question whether he can pull a Karl imitation out of his hat (20 winning seasons, 21 playoff appearances,1,000 career victories). Karl has been around the league a long damn time and taken more than one funky roster of athletic no-names on fun to watch rides.

I don't think you will find any argument in Jazz Nation that it would be far more fun to watch a team who never quits built around a core of super promising young guys (count 'em: Fav, GH, Burks, Evans, DC, Kanter, Murphy, two first round picks in '13) and a couple strategic vets (Millsap and unnamed other, please no mo Mo) - that didn't make the playoffs - then this version of mediocrity.

MTJazz wrote:

Yeah, with you on that Mags. The parallels are interesting between Nuggies this year and Jazz except Karl has had Denver winning for quite a nice run:

09-10 season: 53-29, win NW Division
10-11 season: 50-32; injuries to key players, rip off 18 wins out of last 25
11-12 season: 38-28, almost upset No. 3 Lakers in 7 games
12-13 season: no all-stars, 2nd hottest team in league heading to playoffs

Sadly, I think we are all pretty convinced Ty will around next year and I question whether he can pull a Karl imitation out of his hat (20 winning seasons, 21 playoff appearances,1,000 career victories). Karl has been around the league a long damn time and taken more than one funky roster of athletic no-names on fun to watch rides.

I don't think you will find any argument in Jazz Nation that it would be far more fun to watch a team who never quits built around a core of super promising young guys (count 'em: Fav, GH, Burks, Evans, DC, Kanter, Murphy, two first round picks in '13) and a couple strategic vets (Millsap and unnamed other, please no mo Mo) - that didn't make the playoffs - then this version of mediocrity.

I actually wouldn't mind keeping Marvin, I think he's a nice player off the bench who was badly misused for the better part of this season, but I also think he could be a nice trade piece with his expiring contract (Goran Dragic anybody?).

Everybody knows how I feel about Millsap, but I'm honestly not really loving the possible free agent crop this summer. If the Jazz do go after somebody I'd rather see them target a younger player long term than a veteran rental. OJ Mayo is likley going to opt out of his deal, Tyreke Evans is a restricted free agent, JJ Redick is a free agent, I would love to see any of those guys in a Jazz uniform for the next 3-4 years. Jarrett Jack is another guy who'd be worth a long term deal. Regardless, I'm tired of rentals, time to start actually building a team.

TheMagnus wrote:

MTJazz wrote:

Yeah, with you on that Mags. The parallels are interesting between Nuggies this year and Jazz except Karl has had Denver winning for quite a nice run:

09-10 season: 53-29, win NW Division
10-11 season: 50-32; injuries to key players, rip off 18 wins out of last 25
11-12 season: 38-28, almost upset No. 3 Lakers in 7 games
12-13 season: no all-stars, 2nd hottest team in league heading to playoffs

Sadly, I think we are all pretty convinced Ty will around next year and I question whether he can pull a Karl imitation out of his hat (20 winning seasons, 21 playoff appearances,1,000 career victories). Karl has been around the league a long damn time and taken more than one funky roster of athletic no-names on fun to watch rides.

I don't think you will find any argument in Jazz Nation that it would be far more fun to watch a team who never quits built around a core of super promising young guys (count 'em: Fav, GH, Burks, Evans, DC, Kanter, Murphy, two first round picks in '13) and a couple strategic vets (Millsap and unnamed other, please no mo Mo) - that didn't make the playoffs - then this version of mediocrity.

I actually wouldn't mind keeping Marvin, I think he's a nice player off the bench who was badly misused for the better part of this season, but I also think he could be a nice trade piece with his expiring contract (Goran Dragic anybody?).

Everybody knows how I feel about Millsap, but I'm honestly not really loving the possible free agent crop this summer. If the Jazz do go after somebody I'd rather see them target a younger player long term than a veteran rental. OJ Mayo is likley going to opt out of his deal, Tyreke Evans is a restricted free agent, JJ Redick is a free agent, I would love to see any of those guys in a Jazz uniform for the next 3-4 years. Jarrett Jack is another guy who'd be worth a long term deal. Regardless, I'm tired of rentals, time to start actually building a team.

I love the idea of getting either JJ Redick or Jarret Jack! Not so hot on OJ or Tyrekefor the Jazz.

The Jazz aren't tanking, but we did get our butts handed to us last night. Corey Brewer coming off the bench consistently did us in. I wouldn't mind seeing him come off our bench! I didn't think we played that bad-- except we couldn't stop penetration on defense, and Mo and Randy weren't hitting shots like their counterparts on the Nugs.

MTJazz wrote:

Yeah, with you on that Mags. The parallels are interesting between Nuggies this year and Jazz except Karl has had Denver winning for quite a nice run:

09-10 season: 53-29, win NW Division
10-11 season: 50-32; injuries to key players, rip off 18 wins out of last 25
11-12 season: 38-28, almost upset No. 3 Lakers in 7 games
12-13 season: no all-stars, 2nd hottest team in league heading to playoffs

Sadly, I think we are all pretty convinced Ty will around next year and I question whether he can pull a Karl imitation out of his hat (20 winning seasons, 21 playoff appearances,1,000 career victories). Karl has been around the league a long damn time and taken more than one funky roster of athletic no-names on fun to watch rides.

I don't think you will find any argument in Jazz Nation that it would be far more fun to watch a team who never quits built around a core of super promising young guys (count 'em: Fav, GH, Burks, Evans, DC, Kanter, Murphy, two first round picks in '13) and a couple strategic vets (Millsap and unnamed other, please no mo Mo) - that didn't make the playoffs - then this version of mediocrity.

A nice article from SLCDunk that pretty concisely sums up the feeling of a lot of fans after last nights loss I think....

Quote :

...

Way to go, Kevin O'Connor. Way to go, Tyrone Corbin. Way to go, Utah Jazz. What an incredible 3-year run this has been.

And yes: I am so freaking ready to move on from the current era. I cannot fathom what our front office has been thinking all this time. You don't MAKE that Deron trade in the first place if you are obsessed with winning as much as possible now. You don't MAKE the kind of ongoing roster moves that have been going on all this time if you care about winning as much as possible now. Seriously: Marvin Williams, Mo Williams, Randy Foye, Josh Howard, Jamaal Tinsley ... these are the moves to help the team win now?

Come on ... look at Denver: Two high quality PG's (Ty Lawson and Andre Miller), four good wings (Gallo, Iggy, Chandler, Brewer), three high qualtiy bigs (Faried, McGee, Koufos). That's a roster that freaking makes sense. That's a roster built on a coherent vision (speed, high percentage shots, and enough defense to be good ... you know, the Deron/AK/Boozer/Memo team vision).
Instead we have a team of four high quality bigs, one high quality wing, no decent PG's, and one guy who may be good but the coach can't be bothered to play him enough to figure it out.

Sure, it'd be nice to have a PG worth something, but it's too scary to find one.

Trapped by conservatism, paralyzed by cowardice, coached via incompetence ... that's our team.

...

http://www.slcdunk.com/2013/4/4/4181896/Nuggets-Jazz-April-3-Recap

That's just a piece of it, and I think whether you agree or not the whole thing is worth your time. I personally don't agree with all of it, but I defintiely feel the angst, and I am definitely losing patience.

Zach Lowe's stuff is a must read for Jazz fans....

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/57145/salt-lake-sadness-playoff-bound-or-not-the-jazz-cant-escape-their-biggest-problem

Seriously, go read the whole thing, here's a few highlights...

Quote :

Salt Lake Sadness: Playoff-Bound or Not, the Jazz Can't Escape Their Biggest Problem
...


But Utah has subtly changed its offensive process, starting a few games before that five-game win streak. And those changes helped Utah work its way out of a nasty offensive slump. The Jazz were a top-10 offense last season and for most of this season, but from about mid-February through mid-March, they weirdly fell off, scoring at a bottom-10 rate. A team that defends like the Jazz cannot survive scoring at a bottom-10 rate. Utah’s post-heavy offense had become slow and predictable; Al Jefferson, the fulcrum of that offense, went into a slump, and the Jazz didn’t feature enough variety to keep things afloat when Big Al’s game went off the rails.

...


The changes are reflected in Utah’s overall offensive numbers in that 10-game stretch, and especially in Jefferson’s numbers. About 16 percent of Utah’s possessions for the season have finished with a post-up play, per Synergy, the second-highest such share in the league, behind only the behemoth Pacers. That number is down to 12 percent of late, and if you dig deeper, you see Utah has redistributed those post possessions to pick-and-rolls and a huge jump in plays Synergy simply classifies as “cuts.” And if you dig even deeper and watch the tape, you’ll find most of those “cuts” — efficient looks Utah is snagging at a league-best rate during the last three weeks — come out of pick-and-rolls.

...

I’ve hit Corbin, who declined to comment for this story, hard this season for shaky rotations and an incoherent defensive scheme. But he deserves a lot of credit for making these late-season adjustments, tightening Utah’s rotation a bit, and generally getting a ton of outgoing free agents to play with a team-first mentality. None of that stuff is easy....

And Corbin has adjusted his defense of late, too. I pointed out last month that Utah was having its bigs jump out hard on pick-and-rolls, even though Jefferson especially isn’t very good at that, lacking the foot speed and general awareness to run out beyond the 3-point arc and recover in time. That’s happening much less of late. Corbin has Jefferson (and Millsap) either dropping back toward the foul line or sliding laterally on pick-and-rolls, a strategy that might make it easier for them to contain opposing point guards while keeping them closer to the paint.

Unfortunately, it hasn’t worked. The Jazz, even in that happy 10-game stretch, allowed 104.8 points per 100 possessions, almost exactly equivalent to their season-long mark, which is the ninth-worst in the league, per NBA.com. That number was even worse during the five-game win streak.

Bottom line: This team just can’t defend, regardless of their strategy, and especially when both Jefferson and Williams are on the floor. Those are two very bad defenders at very important positions, and it would be difficult for any coach to build a top-10 defense around them. Of course, coaches control playing time and rotations, and construct overall schemes, and Utah has never had the five-man-on-a-string unity of the league’s better defenses. The Nuggets picked Utah apart last night on very simple plays, often leaving the Jazz looking strangely baffled.

...

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/57145/salt-lake-sadness-playoff-bound-or-not-the-jazz-cant-escape-their-biggest-problem

And this...
"The Jazz have righted themselves, but only on one end of the floor. Until they figure out the other end, their ceiling remains woefully low."

Sadly, while the Jazz D will be better with either Favors or Kanter manning the C, neither one of those guys is going to replace Al's scoring. Al is a smart and creative offensive player. Who knows, maybe it will be replaced by some combination of a SG who is actually a shooter, GH's uptick in production or a Nuggies-style 10-man deep juggernaut.

At the end of the day the Jazz are just poorly built team this year for the style of offense and defense, (the latter which I have still not figured out at all, has anyone else?), that Ty is initiating. The main failure I see is not tweaking the systems to the unique players on the roster.

Awesome to have such solid writing coming out of Grantland, my new favorite site.

MTJazz wrote:

Sadly, while the Jazz D will be better with either Favors or Kanter manning the C, neither one of those guys is going to replace Al's scoring. Al is a smart and creative offensive player. Who knows, maybe it will be replaced by some combination of a SG who is actually a shooter, GH's uptick in production or a Nuggies-style 10-man deep juggernaut.

At the end of the day the Jazz are just poorly built team this year for the style of offense and defense, (the latter which I have still not figured out at all, has anyone else?), that Ty is initiating. The main failure I see is not tweaking the systems to the unique players on the roster.

Sure, but you know whats nice? This team minus Al wouldn't have to score as much to win games either.
This is obviously just random numbers but our team now with Al and his scoring 20pts in the paint a night, thats our positive for the team. Our negative is that Al is giving up 30pts a night via pick and rolls, slashing etc and opposite team scoring in the post. So we have to make up 10+ points a night as it is. We get rid of that, and you telling me that Kanter and Fav can't make up the "10 actual points" Al is giving us?
I think we're in a GREAT position with him leaving.

The other side of that, is that Corbin hasn't shown a thing about coaching to everyone else's talents. Jerry had an absolute system in place with Karl and John and then Dwill and Booz. And they were able to bring in complimentary players that fit that system. Well TYRONE, there is NO absolutes here, and DEFINITELY no system. Fav/Kanter/Paul/Burks/DC/Gordo/Mo are NOT players that fit the Corbin "dump it into Al" offense. These guys need movement, motion, cuts. I believe, BELIEVE 100% that Tyrone Corbin does not have the mental abilities, and basketball know-how to coach this team properly.
This team could be REALLY good next year, with the right coach and the right stud player added to it this summer with all that cash etc.